Tuesday, April 16, 2013

Of Trolls, Individual Accountability and the Internet

by Dietrich Schmitz

I am not perfect.  I make mistakes.  But I try to learn from my experiences.  Hopefully, as you grew up you took all those mistakes and have filed them into a brain folder of things you know you won't ever do again because either they are painful or just not appropriate to a situation or both.

Take for example how you go about doing your daily errands in public.  For one, you don't wear a ski mask.  Oh no.  That is probably not a good idea lest someone get the wrong impression.  Right?

Nor, do you approach a person who you don't know and begin shouting insults at them.  For one, it's not good manners and it will most likely escalate to face meets fist.  This is obvious and for the most part it never happens in a public place setting.

Yet, if you go on the Internet, the situation can be different.  Why don't common courtesies and good manners prevail there?  Why is it that people uncharacteristically exhibit bad behavior on the Internet yet may be perfectly likable in person?

I had an interesting exchange with one individual +Fabian Scherschel the other day.  Previously, I had a different impression of him.  But his behavior was both odd and a good example of how people feel they are not accountable for their actions on the Internet.  I'll let you read the thread that ensued and decide for yourself as to whether this person has some growing up to do:



Fabian ScherschelApr 13, 2013
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There is no controversy. Unlike PA, it was adopted when it was ready to be adopted and everybody seems to like it very much. With the exception of the Ubuntu people but that seems to be based on NIH alone. This is a completely different situation then PA.

Dietrich SchmitzApr 13, 2013
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+Fabian Scherschel Everybody?  I think not. ;)

Fabian ScherschelApr 13, 2013
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Fedora, Mageia, SUSE, Arch and several other distros are using it. And I have not heard of major problems with it ever since Fedora switched to it. It's faster than SysV and Upstart and does some very cool things.

Apart from a few idiots who do not like the log file format and complain about silly things such as new root directories, what problem are there, really?

Fabian ScherschelApr 13, 2013
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Pulse Audio is a completely different kettle of fish. It was very badly broken when Ubuntu adopted it originally. I have about 50 podcast episodes to prove it too....

Dietrich SchmitzApr 13, 2013

+Fabian Scherschel We'll see if comments align with the story or your view.  Feel free to make your comment to the post.

Fabian ScherschelApr 13, 2013
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Internet comments aren't a measure of anything. Especially since a site with that name will always be a self-reinforcing echo chamber. I run a podcast called "Linux Outlaws", I know how it goes. I am constantly fighting that phenomenon....

Dietrich SchmitzApr 13, 2013

+Fabian Scherschel I hope you didn't hurt yourself when your knee hit your chiny chin chin. ;)

Andrew WyattApr 13, 2013 (edited)
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ConsoleKit + UDev + Syslog + DBus + Polkit + Sysinit + this + that.   RedHat Enterprise Systemd is the best product we've ever been force fed.  We are facing being forced to integrate it at Fuduntu because it's replacing so many core tools now that it's impossible to continue the project without it.

Those "idiots" that don't like binary logs aren't "idiots", some of us actually have some idea of what we are talking about, but what do I know..

Ikey DohertyApr 13, 2013
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Hate to say it but PulseAudio was actually the fault of the distros implementing it

Dietrich SchmitzApr 13, 2013
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+Ikey Doherty Hey stay out of it ... you! (kidding)

Ikey DohertyApr 13, 2013
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Lol don't worry, I intend to. SolusOS 2 is using systemd ^^

Chris AhlstromApr 14, 2013
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+Andrew Wyatt The first question that comes to mind about the log format is "how many log analysis tools does it break"?  The second question is, why the F make it binary -- that's a Microsoft thang!

Fabian ScherschelApr 14, 2013
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You people are still bitching about the log format? Jesus Christ. You're supposed to be Linux geeks. Write a fucking script! You are acting as if it's a proprietary format.

Andrew WyattApr 14, 2013


+Fabian Scherschel great job missing the point, but I guess that's to be expected.

Fabian ScherschelApr 14, 2013
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The point being what? That you hate change? I bet you're still using HAL, eh?

Andrew WyattApr 14, 2013


Now you are just trolling, or an idiot.

Fabian ScherschelApr 14, 2013
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Says the guy with the distro that nobody gives a rat's ass about. What exactly are you complaining about anyway? You have upstart and sysv init. Nobody is forcing anybody to use systemd. My only point is that the comparison to PA is bull. Back when PA was new, the problem wasn't if a fucking log format was binary or text, it was more like you couldn't record any audio on your system at all with the wrong hardware. Call me when 20% of systems don't boot at all with systemd. Or if anyone actually starts using your distro. I am perfectly happy with my logs as they are and I can dump them into plain text for anything that breaks.

Andrew WyattApr 14, 2013


Oh, I see you are trolling and an idiot.  My mistake. :)

Fabian ScherschelApr 14, 2013
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Oh dear, I am so offended. How will I be able to sleep at night.... LOL

Andrew WyattApr 14, 2013
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It's only April 14th, and we've had 3.5m hits to our website and mirror, I guess there are a few no-ones that care just a little about it. :)

Dietrich SchmitzApr 14, 2013

Of all people, I'd expect perfect behavior, temperance and restraint from you Fabian.  Please restrain yourself.

The analogy to PulseAudio is a good one.  Even if inaccurate or open to question, it makes a point.  Any work done on this level is going to be 'contentious', unless handled carefully, pragmatically, and SLOWLY.

As Aaron used the reference, I see it all the more appropriate and if it engendered a knee-jerk reaction, then in part the story succeeds in making those in the community pull back and think.

I'd agree with Aaron that there is at present overreaching ambition and the pace of change is too quick and would be better if put in the hands of someone other than Lennart to manage.
Expand this comment »

Andrew WyattApr 14, 2013


You shouldn't expect anything more +Dietrich Schmitz they simply can't handle anyone that doesn't tow the line, and they prove it time and time again.  Challenge them in any way and they resort to this sort of behavior because they can't form a legitimate argument in their own defense.  Take his argument apart and it simply fails, you are forced to use systemd or you have to take on the burden of supporting all of the various components they are force-deprecating yourself.  It's an impossible task, and they know it.

Dietrich SchmitzApr 14, 2013

+Andrew Wyatt Fabian is a writing colleague and I expect restraint from both sides; no personalizations. NONE.

Andrew WyattApr 14, 2013


Fair enough. :)

Dietrich SchmitzApr 14, 2013

Now, the both of you please exchange apologies and let's join  together and be professionals, yes?
+Fabian Scherschel +Andrew Wyatt 

Fabian ScherschelYesterday 11:46 AM
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Never expect restraint from me. Seriously. I always say exactly what I think, nothing more nothing less. I never claim to be 100% right, I just always give it my best shot.

Dietrich SchmitzYesterday 11:50 AM

+Fabian Scherschel You (and Andrew) were rude and used inappropriate language.  That was not your best shot.

You can and should both apologize for your behavior.

Fabian ScherschelYesterday 11:55 AM
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Oh yes, I am quite rude. Australian upbringing. It's somewhat of a national sport there. I didn't even try BTW, I could be a lot more insulting if I actually give it a shot.

Dietrich SchmitzYesterday 11:59 AM
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+Fabian Scherschel That is rather immature and  disappointing.  That is not acceptable behavior.

Are you being belligerent for any special reason?

Fabian ScherschelYesterday 12:03 PM


Insults are just words. I prefer to concentrate on important things. Being offended is basically a personal choice. It's not like people on the internet are nice to me all day. Why should I be nice? I'm not a theist so basically there's no point from where I stand.

Dietrich SchmitzYesterday 12:08 PM
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+Fabian Scherschel I don't care about your point of view.  It's your behavior I am talking about.  Take ownership.

You have a chance to redeem yourself.
Simply apologize and we can put this issue to rest.

Fabian ScherschelYesterday 12:15 PM


You are not my mother. You have absolutely no right to judge me. I can be as insulting as I want. Especially since I am not talking as "a professional" here. This is my personal account and I say what I want here. If you want my professional opinion, go and read The H. :)

Dietrich SchmitzYesterday 12:19 PM
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+Fabian Scherschel I am afraid you are incorrect.  You are in full view 'public' and must conduct yourself accordingly.

This is being recorded for future reference and you are responsible for all of your behavior regardless of location, including what you say to others here at Google Plus.

Now, mind you this is an individual who writes for H-Online.  He's right.  I am not his Mother, but he is accountable, not just in public, but on Google Plus too.

I really am tired of people behaving badly and who simply are doing it with impunity as though they are not accountable for themselves.  It's wrong.  Take responsibility on the Internet 'the same way' you do in public.  Be a good Netizen.

-- Dietrich


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24 comments:

  1. Could not agree more. Absolutely. I find many people's behavior online to be completely unacceptable. I also admit I have - though rarely - sunk at least partially to the level of those who have attacked me.


    I have not ever, though, threatened to contact someone's employer simply because I disagreed with their view or done some of the other completely over-the-top actions I have seen online. I rarely even sink to name calling.


    Those that do show themselves in a poor light and, generally, are putting others down to try to feel better about themselves.

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  2. I'm generally a fan of Fabian's. If you read his articles for H-online, he's very professional and makes an admirable attempt to be objective even when evaluating things he dislikes (he is an outspoken critic of Ubuntu on Linux Outlaws, but was thorough and quite positive in his review of Ubuntu 12.04 for H-online).


    I do think his comments to Andrew Wyatt were insulting and I am disappointed by them. It's one thing to believe - correctly or not - that systemd is a good choice and should be adopted universally by Linux distributions. It's another thing to mock a person that chooses not to use it or trivialize the amount of work involved transitioning to it.

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  3. You are being an apologist. It's unacceptable behavior. There's no such thing as being 'a little bit pregnant'.
    Nor is there such a thing as being a little bit inappropriate.
    Either you are or you aren't.
    He can do whatever he wants on his own watch, but not around me.

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  4. Well well,


    First off I'd say I was a huge fan of Fuduntu being a Gnome 2 fan but after hearing with Andrew "Fewt" has been saying I'm just going to back away from his distro especially since it's dead. I already replaced fuduntu on my netbook with fedora+mate (and it uses systemd which is superior).


    Michael Glasser aka Snit, has been harassing Roy Schestowitz via IRC and on Google Groups for more than a few years ago. It's amusing that he has something to say against Fabian - perhaps its all his experience trolling - posting out of context quotes about RMS and pedophilia.


    Basically Fabian isn't being a troll - if what he said is considered 'insulting' and/or 'trolling' then you have been living a very sheltered life. You have yet to meet me :)


    Another thing: You may want to improve some things on your site. Why comments show up under everything including links to other articles and a bio of yourself baffles the hell out of me. I guess if you can't follow the systemd standard I shouldn't expect the article author to follow writing standards either!


    Go Fabian! Thanks to Dietrich, I've uninstalled Fuduntu and now I'm subscribed to Linux Outlaws! (This site has also been removed from my RSS reader)

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  5. Why do you have to be a fascist Dietrich? Is that name german? Should I have said language-nazi?

    Btw: trollface is a copyright photo, got permission? Whats with you Lunix advocates and stealing - then complaining when corps don't follow the GPL to the letter?

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  6. Yo, you still trolling Roy on google groups?

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  7. Dickhead deleted my comments. I was civil and had logical arguements, but Deitrich the nazi deleted it.


    You think Fabian is a troll, i'm him^1337

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  8. Personally, I've never met Fabian, in fact until I read this blog I'd never heard of him. After reading then rereading the quoted exchange, I'm at a loss to see what exactly it was that Fabian did that was so wrong, other, that is, than being quite whiny in the last few exchanges between you and himself.

    In terms of how he handled Andrew Wyatt I think he handled himself fine. The only person actually out of line was Andrew Wyatt, who insisted that Fabian was a Troll, when in fact Fabian was simply disagreeing with Andrew, and giving good reasons why, and then calling Fabian an idiot as well when clearly Andrew had no good argument to back up his obvious dislike of the software in question.

    I think you are simply being more than a little twee, when calling him on the language he used. It's not even as if he used the correct spelling for "rat's arse" instead he used a common American English euphemism "ass" which if you analyse the statement correctly it means "the donkey the belonging to the rat", and horrors he said Fuck.

    Please Dietrich get a life.

    The person making personal attacks was Andrew Wyatt, which is something he regularly does when the debate doesn't go his way.

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  9. I wasn't being an apologist. I said if I wasn't already familiar with Fab, I'd probably be offended too... but since I *AM* already familiar with him... and I can actually hear his voice speaking the things he wrote when I read them... it just made me laugh. Sorry for having that reaction but that's just the way it is.

    Complaining about Fab is kinda like complaining about Howard Stern. I'm sure some people do but most shrug it off and explain... that's just Howard. I guess I'm just a little bit pregnant. Luckily there are several ways to fix that after the fact... so being pregnant isn't that big of a deal now is it? Just to clarify, I don't listen to Howard Stern, but I do listen to Fab. I don't always agree with him though.

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  10. Oh, one more thought on this subject.


    I hang out in IRC channels a lot... mostly #openvz on freenode but a few others. Anyway, I don't have ops power in there and often there isn't an op around... so I have to be more creative because I can't kick or ban anyone. We sometimes have obnoxious people come into the channel and say offensive things. I've found that not taking the bait and addressing the meat of someone's complaints works a lot better than just getting offended. Often I can take an obnoxious person and turn them into a productive member of the community. It doesn't always work because some people are just unredeemable (in that particular context). I'm not saying that Fab is a similar situation.



    Fab did give you something to write an article about, eh? A few more hits, right? Thanks Fab! :) Sticks and stones... blah, blah, blah.


    As for me, hey... I keep reading your stuff.

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  11. Oh, please, Mr. Schmitz! You're the one embarassing yourself here. If one reads your exchange with Mr. Scherschel top to bottom, then a certain pattern becomes clear. Your first answer to Mr. Scherschel is NOT an attempt to start a serious discussion in any way. In it you merely argue semantics and belittle him. And take this gem of yours:

    "I hope you didn't hurt yourself when your knee hit your chiny chin chin. ;)"



    That's a reasonable mode of discussion? Oh, sure, you added an emoticon. That makes it all better.


    As I see it, not one of your comments added anything of substance. You just threw at Mr. Scherschel meaningless one-liners. And then you are a) surprised that he blows a fuse and b) pissed that he doesn't conduct himself properly, even though YOU basically did everything possible to make this happen? It's a good example of hypocrisy that you hide behind someone (supposedly) being impolite instead of bringing forth counter-arguments which have some merit WRT to the issue being actually discussed.

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  12. Trolling: Formulating a piece of writing in such a fashion as to bait an aggravated response from its readers. Example: "I hope you didn't hurt yourself when your knee hit your chiny chin chin". The problem with expressing a distaste at something on the internet is you can be damn sure people will try to find flaws in your argument. It's always wise - online or offline - to be sure you're not guilty of the same crimes you're accusing others of; especially if you expect to be taken seriously.

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  13. You really, really want and need them hits, don't you. Well I hope you like me, I gave you one :) But I'll be very careful not to click on links that lead to this website again. What a waste of time.

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  14. I am not very familiar with this Fabian Scherschel although I have heard of him... but writing an article posting screenshots of a conversation you had with somebody whom you did not like his answers and trying to demonize him in public because you are an easily offended dainty little flower goes to show that YOU sir... are the Troll... and this article makes you look pathetic.

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  15. You may consider yourself no longer invited to write for Linux Advocates.

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  16. Dietrich, great article. I wholeheartedly concur with your assessment of the situation. All parties are accountable for their actions and words on the Internet. I look at it from this perspective. Would either individual engage in this sort of exchange of words if they were standing in front of each other? If the answer is, NO, then the exchange should not happen in cyberspace.

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  17. The words that come to my mind right now: sore loser. I hazard a guess that your list of guest writers will grow pretty thin soon.

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  18. And so it goes. It was better to find out now then later. I am not interested in making affiliations of this kind.

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  19. Dietrich, you are such a loser.

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  20. Mr. Dietrich Schmitz. You sleep in the bed you make. I never heard of you before a site called "Linux Advocates" was launched. In it, after you had invited me to contribute, I saw you run provocative (one might say trollish) pieces that slam Linux stuff -- a site run by the obscure - IMO - self-professed advocate whom I never heard of. -- one who bans Linux advocates (at least 5 so far). Pogson, Hill, Swapnil, Fab...

    Some of your posts have been nothing but personal attacks on Linux advocates.

    Congratulations on creating a site called Linux Advocates -- a site whose main function is to invite Linux advocates and then gag or ridicule them. If you delete this comment -- as you often do (your censorship has earned you bad reputation in private communication), I will 'Streisand Effect' it.

    Censorship in a site called Linux Advocates shows either extreme insecurity or a well-calculated attempt to vilify Linux advocates.

    Good luck with the site. Based on what I saw behind the scenes, you are left alone. You sleep in the bed you make.

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  21. Oh wow Dietrich, you're one fascist mofo


    Kicking out Roy because he doesn't agree with you?


    Who are you to label someone a troll when you've had one interaction?


    Troll: The often used ad hominem attack used to discredit people who disagree under the guise that they are just trying to disrupt a conversation.

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  22. 1. I was really disappointed to see this exchange take place, in the first place.

    2. I was really disappointed to see Dietrich failed to be accountable as a moderator in the discussion,

    3. I am really disappointed to see all of this continues to live on this site. What, pray tell, does any of this have to do with advocating the use of Linux?

    Without question, Mr Scherschel was out of line. But so was Mr. Wyatt. And all of that was allowed to continue, simply because a group moderator failed to squash it?

    Sorry, Dietrich, but your inability (or was that just unwillingness) to moderate the original discussion cost you some respect points. That you choose to continue fanning the flames, here on this site, is costing you even more. I have no doubt you don't like hearing what I am saying, but I jus' calls 'em as I sees 'em.

    Hopefully discussion on this site and in the G+ group will return to the advocacy of Linux and will offer much less contention in the coming days.

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